Comments by John Wentz Most recent public comments by John Wentz https://nowcomment.com/users/139792 What are the benefits of students challenging themselves? https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3145276 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3145276 Can you elaborate on why grades might disincentivize self-challenging behavior? How does this work in a typical student scenario? Could you provide an example of a situation where a student might be discouraged from challenging themselves due to grades? Could you further explore why it's beneficial for students to challenge themselves? Are there specific skills or experiences they gain from this? What are some alternatives to the current grading system that may encourage self-challenging behavior? Have any of these alternatives been tried and what were the results? What role do teachers and parents play in this? Can they do anything to encourage self-challenging behavior while still operating within the existing grading system? If grades disincentivize self-challenging behavior, what does this imply about the broader education system? Does it need a complete overhaul or are there smaller changes that could be implemented to better encourage self-challenging behavior? What are some ways that students can challenge themselves, within or outside the classroom, and how can schools support this? Mon, 02 Oct 2023 13:45:40 -0400 The point introduced in paragraph 17 is that judgement wastes cognitive capacity and distracts from the task. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142649 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142649 I don't agree with the author's application of this insight to formative assessment because judgement is not the same as analysis. When a student or a teacher tries to summarize performance on some overall spectrum of good to bad, this takes focus away from the task. Formative assessment does not need to do this, however, and can simply be an analysis of learning without judgement. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:11:42 -0400 This follows from the most central claim of the paper: constant judgement removes focus on the task. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142634 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142634 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:56:55 -0400 After apparently signaling this transition, the author gives another argument. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142619 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142619 Counterclaim: Students need grades in order to be accepted into prestigious colleges. Rebuttal, colleges will accept students from grade free schools on the basis of narrative reports. This paragraph belongs in the section "Why Grading Is Inherently Problematic." Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:14:06 -0400 Signaling transition from argument to advice. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142618 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142618 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:49:28 -0400 The examples given here illustrate what the author would have us do for other examples of "standards-based" grading. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142617 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142617 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:48:00 -0400 Here the author expresses his belief that "standards-based" grading is useless, but is unable to narrow this down for the reason that "standards-based" grading is too broad to specifically address every conception of it. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142616 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142616 The author relies on the other arguments in the paper to prop up what would otherwise be an assertion, and effectively asks the reader to apply these arguments to whatever conception of "standards-based" grading they have. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:45:53 -0400 Counterclaim: Comments which explain the grade would improve grading. Three different rebuttals are provided in short order. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142615 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142615 Rebuttal 1: Comments which explain the grade, in practice, turn into justification for the grade. Data for this is provided by the source. The implied warrant is that a comment cannot both justify a grade and provide meaningful feedback. Rebuttal 2: Comments are useless because students ignore them. Here the data is the anecdotes of a high school English teacher. The implied warrant is that students cannot benefit from words they do not read. Rebuttal 3: Grades reduce creativity just as much or more where comments are present. The data is provided by the source. The implied warrant is that student creativity is desirable. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:13:47 -0400 Counterclaim: Grades could be improved by efficient dissemination. Rebuttal: For all reasons stated elsewhere in the paper, this would worsen the effects of grading. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142613 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142613 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:13:30 -0400 Counterclaim: Grades could be improved by setting clear expectations. Rebuttal: the implied warrant, that students meeting the expectations of their educators ought to be the primary goal of education, does not hold. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142611 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142611 If, as a society, we believed that children were capable of wisely setting their own goals and the means to achieve those goals as a whole, then they wouldn't be legal children at all. As capacities of adulthood. It's true that self-directedness needs to be fostered and expanded at every opportunity. However, either the expectations of the instructor are legitimately prioritized over the expectations of the student, or school attendance should be made optional. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:32:59 -0400 Single point rubrics are an exception. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142603 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142603 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:25:05 -0400 This seems to be a non-sequitur. The point is that assessment relies on quality curriculum, which should therefore be the main focus of instruction. The problem is, one who disagrees with the author could admit this without compromising their position. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142602 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142602 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 11:22:40 -0400 Counterclaim: Grades allow teachers to quantify, and therefore measure, student learning. Rebuttal: Measurement can be done without quantification. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142595 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142595 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:13:14 -0400 Counterclaim: Not clear to me. Rebuttal: grades reduce student engagement, thus undermining achievement. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142593 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142593 Is the counterclaim here simply "grades improve achievement?" If so, the author is not so much rebutting an argument as denying that there is data, and instead suggesting data for the exact contrary. This doesn't necessarily make this point weaker, but it makes it hard to distinguish from the argument in paragraph 14. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:13:02 -0400 Counterclaim: Grades improve student motivation. Author's rebuttal: Grades only improve extrinsic motivation, while only intrinsic motivation is desired. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142575 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142575 Possible response: In life, we regularly operate from both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. While intrinsic motivation might be preferable, it would not be a reliable basis for an entire society. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:12:53 -0400 The author provides additional data points here while expressing that he will not pursue these points here. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142573 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142573 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:06:00 -0400 Data Point 3: Grades reduce "quality of thinking." Implied Warrant: Students benefit from better thinking. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142572 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142572 This point is phrased somewhat vaguely, though I believe what is meant is both depth of knowledge and retention. Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:05:45 -0400 Data Point 2: Grades disincentivize self-challenging behavior. Implied Warrant: Students benefit from challenging themselves. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142570 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142570 Mon, 02 Oct 2023 13:45:40 -0400 Data Point 1: Grades reduce student interest. Implied warrant: students benefit from engagement with the material. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142569 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142569 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:05:23 -0400 Central claim: students do not benefit from grades. https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142568 https://nowcomment.com/documents/356719?scroll_to=3142568 Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:04:43 -0400